Curse

Malice Black · Jul 31, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Certainly. There is no way to eliminate fraud, so we should just accept it. We should completely ignore and allow CEOs to embezzle employee retirement accounts, ignore insider trading, etc. Afterall, we can't catch them all so the world will be fine by just letting it all happen.

I know better. You are grossly in error.

All that is necessary for evil to win is for good men to do nothing. Both of your choices promote the loss of good.

What are you babbling about?

What has corrupt CEO's got to do with bots? what has insider info got to with anything? you sound like a middle aged man that is disgruntled with his employer.

Promote the loss of good? it's a game! there is no good and evil, it's pixels on a screen.

Bithor the Dog · Jul 31, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

oh for petes sake fitz, stop with the forum trolling. You got banned from incgamers for this sort of thing so what, you come on here for the same stuff? ....you get off on this or something? I read 50% of all the posts you made there and its all the same pshycobabble.

go away man, just go!

Mohnzh · Jul 31, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Fitz, I understand what you are saying, but be aware that most of your arguments require a lot of thought to unravel. There may, in fact, be no forum receptive to what you are saying. Most gamers play to get away from having to think. A lot of what people accuse you of saying as being convoluted or contradictory is not, but it requires a lot of thought to work through the logic. Unfortunately, as indicated by Malice, because it is a game it is too trivial to be corrected. Nobody cares enough to fix a problem in something that is only 1s, 0s, and consequently pixels.

You make an effort to tie this flaw in a trivial pursuit to real life, large scale issues such as terrorism and organized crime. Undoubtedly, if they can take advantage of it, they will. But to claim that ANet is responsible for it is taking a step too far. In fact, removing the responsibility from the perpetrator is a very dangerous notion. Should ANet focus all of their attention on preventing organized crime and terrorists from taking advantage of imperfections in their system? I hope not. I hope they are focused on making the game more balanced and more enjoyable for the majority of the users. You do not rid yourself of terrorists by killing the bots. You rid yourself of terrorists by removing the terrorists. To place any responsibility on ANet or ebay or any other organization that criminals utilize is fallacious. Taking responsibility away from the individual and placing it on society is a large foundation of liberal thinking (didn't you list that as your number 1 evil?). That is why there are 11th graders who cannot read, and kids on all sorts of medications, and moral decisions being attributed to genetics. No, let us not continue this route by claiming that ANet ought to change their policy to prevent terrorism. If your beef is with terrorism, join the military. If your beef is with bots and the way the game plays, play a different game if you honestly cannot enjoy this one. Single player RPGs have much more attainable goals, and I never have a problem with their economies.

Fitz Rinley · Aug 01, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bithor the Dog

oh for petes sake fitz, stop with the forum trolling. You got banned from incgamers for this sort of thing so what, you come on here for the same stuff? ....you get off on this or something? I read 50% of all the posts you made there and its all the same pshycobabble.

go away man, just go!

I was banned because they could not handle moral arguments about what was right for the game. Since that time nearly everything I argued has had to be changed, as I suggested, in part or in full. Nearly every development I supported or promoted has moved forward into either game changes, occurs in Nightfall, or was dropped/discontinued with the Nightfall game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohnzh

Fitz, I understand what you are saying, but be aware that most of your arguments require a lot of thought to unravel. There may, in fact, be no forum receptive to what you are saying. Most gamers play to get away from having to think. A lot of what people accuse you of saying as being convoluted or contradictory is not, but it requires a lot of thought to work through the logic. Unfortunately, as indicated by Malice, because it is a game it is too trivial to be corrected. Nobody cares enough to fix a problem in something that is only 1s, 0s, and consequently pixels.

I understand what you are saying. And herein lies the problem: What at core is promoted as the attitude of recreational life is integral to the functions of all other aspects of life. Those who do not care about being moral at all times, will cease to care about being moral at anytime.

Quote:

You make an effort to tie this flaw in a trivial pursuit to real life, large scale issues such as terrorism and organized crime. Undoubtedly, if they can take advantage of it, they will. But to claim that ANet is responsible for it is taking a step too far. In fact, removing the responsibility from the perpetrator is a very dangerous notion. Should ANet focus all of their attention on preventing organized crime and terrorists from taking advantage of imperfections in their system? I hope not. I hope they are focused on making the game more balanced and more enjoyable for the majority of the users. You do not rid yourself of terrorists by killing the bots. You rid yourself of terrorists by removing the terrorists. To place any responsibility on ANet or ebay or any other organization that criminals utilize is fallacious. Taking responsibility away from the individual and placing it on society is a large foundation of liberal thinking (didn't you list that as your number 1 evil?). That is why there are 11th graders who cannot read, and kids on all sorts of medications, and moral decisions being attributed to genetics. No, let us not continue this route by claiming that ANet ought to change their policy to prevent terrorism. If your beef is with terrorism, join the military. If your beef is with bots and the way the game plays, play a different game if you honestly cannot enjoy this one. Single player RPGs have much more attainable goals, and I never have a problem with their economies.

I do not hold ANet responsible for the actions of the criminals but for the support of those actions through inaction. I presume, and fully believe, that if money used to blow up children were traced back to a video game like this that the management would be devastated. Nor, if you read my post did I propose that this is a regular occurence, but that it is a quite real possibility. If in the face of potential heinous crimes or egregious misdeed we neglect to act to prevent that potential - whether from abuse of a video game, abuse of loopholes to steal peoples retirements, etc., then we in fact are responsible to that degree in which we did not act.

What I have specifically maintained is that the only way to get rid of the bots and problems is to open up the drops. Prohibition does not work. Prohibition has never worked. The temperence movement attempted prohibition here and merely resulted in creating a criminal underground which would supply booze on the black-market. The same is also true of the EULA violations. And since ANet is historically aware that prohibition never works but inspires an increase in criminal markets (having people that have passed highschool history) then they know that their efforts at restricting bots through prohibiting player access to decent drops and money is exactly what is inspiring the EULA violations. They therefore can only know they are responsible for creating that environment conducive to the EULA violations. This means either they are responsible and active participants in the botting industry, they have someone who is corrupt participating in the botting industry, or they are too willfully ignorant of economic process to moderate even a game economy. There is a fourth possibility, the one you allude to above, they are totally apathetic about how the decisions they make affect their players.

They should not be segregating players into elite and non-elite groups where one is provided wealth and privilege and the other is not. Their current drop system does this. They should not be promoting EULA violations with prohibitions. Their current drop system does this. The question is begged, to what end and for what benefit do they punish the bulk of their players in this manner? No answer to it is justifiable.

Snow Bunny · Aug 01, 2007, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I was banned because they could not handle moral arguments about what was right for the game. Since that time nearly everything I argued has had to be changed, as I suggested, in part or in full. Nearly every development I supported or promoted has moved forward into either game changes, occurs in Nightfall, or was dropped/discontinued with the Nightfall game.

I understand what you are saying. And herein lies the problem: What at core is promoted as the attitude of recreational life is integral to the functions of all other aspects of life. Those who do not care about being moral at all times, will cease to care about being moral at anytime.

I do not hold ANet responsible for the actions of the criminals but for the support of those actions through inaction. I presume, and fully believe, that if money used to blow up children were traced back to a video game like this that the management would be devastated. Nor, if you read my post did I propose that this is a regular occurence, but that it is a quite real possibility. If in the face of potential heinous crimes or egregious misdeed we neglect to act to prevent that potential - whether from abuse of a video game, abuse of loopholes to steal peoples retirements, etc., then we in fact are responsible to that degree in which we did not act.

What I have specifically maintained is that the only way to get rid of the bots and problems is to open up the drops. Prohibition does not work. Prohibition has never worked. The temperence movement attempted prohibition here and merely resulted in creating a criminal underground which would supply booze on the black-market. The same is also true of the EULA violations. And since ANet is historically aware that prohibition never works but inspires an increase in criminal markets (having people that have passed highschool history) then they know that their efforts at restricting bots through prohibiting player access to decent drops and money is exactly what is inspiring the EULA violations. They therefore can only know they are responsible for creating that environment conducive to the EULA violations. This means either they are responsible and active participants in the botting industry, they have someone who is corrupt participating in the botting industry, or they are too willfully ignorant of economic process to moderate even a game economy. There is a fourth possibility, the one you allude to above, they are totally apathetic about how the decisions they make affect their players.

They should not be segregating players into elite and non-elite groups where one is provided wealth and privilege and the other is not. Their current drop system does this. They should not be promoting EULA violations with prohibitions. Their current drop system does this. The question is begged, to what end and for what benefit do they punish the bulk of their players in this manner? No answer to it is justifiable.

You know, your writing will be 1000% more persuasive if it's more concise.
Secondly, if you've been playing for 2 years, and don't have a reasonable amount of wealth, that's your fault. People who've had this game for longer have had more opportunities.
Please stop with the historical analogies/moral examples. They don't work and don't relate.

Fitz Rinley · Aug 01, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Your choice not to have a relation to what is moral and to what is historical does not invalidate my knowledge.

dts720666 · Aug 01, 2007, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Frankly, I don't care about the in game economy. I have owned the game for 21 months. I have never found anything in the economy beneficial. I have never found anything in the constant trade spam enjoyable. I have never found farming to be anything but the most degrading monotonous assembly line manure ever invented. I have occassionally sold crafting materials, and hated sitting in my chair advertising for hours. I have in the past tried to sell max gold items with perfect stats and ended up selling them for 100 g each just to get them out of the way so I could play the game. The economy in GW does now and has always sucked simply because it is there. It is a waste of time, and mostly benefits those who do not want to play the game

I agree and am in almost the exact position. I hate buying stuff...and so never do, and I HATE selling stuff, so always WAY undersell stuff just so I can get rid of it, and get a teeny bit more gold that the highway robbery prices of the merchant.

The problem is that I am trying to boost my luck, treasure hunter, and wisdom title tracks, and all of these are huge money holes. So I need money, but can't get it and so am stuck doing some of the most monotonous, degrading things in the game that exist just to get 1.3 k for my next lockpick.

I wish ANet could do somethign about the bots and the in game economy, but I don't think there is much they can do. There has to be a way to maintain solo farming in the game, but disable bots. If ANet were to open up the drops, it would only make drops easier for bots, and since everybody would not be richer, the prices of certain rare/green items would skyrocket exponentially.

Let's say a bot can make 50k a day, and I can make 5k. But then, if the drops are opened up so I can make 50k a day, the bot can now make 500k a day. That rare item which was 60k would now sell for 600k, and I would be just as far behind. The only way to "fix" this is to make all drops (even rare max golds and greens) drop a lot so that everybody could get them with a little bit of game play. If this happend, prices would indeed plummet for these items due to supply being so high and demand being low, but the bots don't care. They just merch it all, and sell to those lazy people who need the cash for lucky title tracks and buying unid golds for the wisdom title track etc. etc etc.

Maybe what ANet could do is only allow certain popular explorable areas which bots frequent to be entered 5 times or so before that player has to go do a repeatable quest which a bot could not do. This would mean that a bot could not run all day and night without a human player.

I think that probably ANet has "surrendered" to the bots for GW1, and once GW2 comes out, ANet will abandon GW1 to the bots. Hopefully, ANet is taking careful steps to stop bots but keep solo farming in GW2.

Snow Bunny · Aug 01, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Your choice not to have a relation to what is moral and to what is historical does not invalidate my knowledge.

If the trading system were immoral, I'd assign a relation to it. Explain to me EXACTLY, precisely, and CONCISELY what is immoral about the trade system in guild wars. I don't want a long-winded answer.
You don't like that some people have a lot of plat? A lot of them worked for it.
Some people don't want to buy your weapon? Too bad.
If someone charges a lot for a weapon, and sells it, good! Someone obviously believed that the weapon was worth it. And if they don't, they'll be smart, and undercut other sellers and make the sale.

"Corrupt CEO's, insider traders, Taliban, terrorism, illegal employers, egalitarianism" Keep the political demagoguery out of this.

You just come off sounding like, Malice Black said, a disgruntled employee.

Malice Black · Aug 01, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I understand what you are saying. And herein lies the problem: What at core is promoted as the attitude of recreational life is integral to the functions of all other aspects of life. Those who do not care about being moral at all times, will cease to care about being moral at anytime.

So much presumption here it's unbelievable. I take it you have some figures or perhaps a nice article for us that will confirm this? yeah I didn't think so. More babbling about nothing. How people act and what they do in their life outside of GW is none of your business.

Anyways back to the topic at hand. By your post I take it you think botting is immoral? buying gold is immoral?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I do not hold ANet responsible for the actions of the criminals but for the support of those actions through inaction. I presume, and fully believe, that if money used to blow up children were traced back to a video game like this that the management would be devastated. Nor, if you read my post did I propose that this is a regular occurence, but that it is a quite real possibility. If in the face of potential heinous crimes or egregious misdeed we neglect to act to prevent that potential - whether from abuse of a video game, abuse of loopholes to steal peoples retirements, etc., then we in fact are responsible to that degree in which we did not act. =

You believe the botters fund terrorism or war? LOL! they do it to fund THEIR lives. It's a job. There has been more then one article that has covered gold farmers and the bosses behind the business. I suggest you read one or two of those articles before throwing around these utterly ridiculous accusations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

What I have specifically maintained is that the only way to get rid of the bots and problems is to open up the drops. Prohibition does not work. Prohibition has never worked. The temperence movement attempted prohibition here and merely resulted in creating a criminal underground which would supply booze on the black-market. The same is also true of the EULA violations. And since ANet is historically aware that prohibition never works but inspires an increase in criminal markets (having people that have passed highschool history) then they know that their efforts at restricting bots through prohibiting player access to decent drops and money is exactly what is inspiring the EULA violations. They therefore can only know they are responsible for creating that environment conducive to the EULA violations. This means either they are responsible and active participants in the botting industry, they have someone who is corrupt participating in the botting industry, or they are too willfully ignorant of economic process to moderate even a game economy. There is a fourth possibility, the one you allude to above, they are totally apathetic about how the decisions they make affect their players.

Increasing gold drops solves nothing! the online gold just drops in price, nothing more. You can not stop botting without getting rid of anything of value in the game(gold drops item drops, runes, materials, rare materials etc). Anet will not do this, bots are an issue but not a big enough one to lose their player base. You're dramatizing the issue, a very small percentage of the overall gaming community buy gold, many of which will only do it the once. This has been stated in all the previous threads of this nature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

They should not be segregating players into elite and non-elite groups where one is provided wealth and privilege and the other is not. Their current drop system does this. They should not be promoting EULA violations with prohibitions. Their current drop system does this. The question is begged, to what end and for what benefit do they punish the bulk of their players in this manner? No answer to it is justifiable.

How are players segregated? everyone can gain access to the elite areas, everyone can access the top farming spots, everyone can gain access to hard mode, it is down to the player how they progress in the game. If people can't be bothered to complete a campaign then they have no right to hard more, this goes for all the elite areas as well.

People are poor by choice, if they can't be bothered to do that little extra then they can't whine. Nothing you be handed to anyone on a plate.

No answer is justifiable? maybe to you, but you are only one person in a player base of millions, your view counts for jack in the grand scheme of things.

And FYI the loot scaling has worked a treat, 1000k use to cost $40, it is now around the $70-80 mark. I'm thinking that is a big deterrent to the casual gold buyer. Those that have the available means will always purchase gold, no matter the price.

So in conclusion:

1. You haven't posted any NEW information that people didn't know 2 years ago.

2. You bored most people to tears with your real world 'comparisons' (which failed on a massive scale)

3. You outraged others with your phyco babble.

And finally, you completely killed this thread when you brought "morals" into it. People play to have fun, morals do not come into it.

Mohnzh · Aug 01, 2007, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Hmm...I would have to say I disagree with Mailce, here. Who I am and my ethical values do not shut off when I sit down at a computer. One definition of character is who you are when no one is looking. That can be expanded to who you are when nobody knows it's you. If you feel like it is okay to do immoral things in a game, regardless of how trivial and meaningless it is, it still demonstrates a weakness in character. It is simlar to stealing a grape in the grocery store. It may seem harmless, and may even be harmless, but wrong is wrong regardless of the consequences.

HOWEVER, Fitz's response concerning integrity and morals had absolutely nothing to do with the statement he was responding to. The statement had to do with thought, not character. And it had to do with thinking about his arguments, not playing the game. His response to that was nothing but confusing.

Fitz, you still miss my point concerning passing out blame to ANet. If we hold them responsible for their inaction, should we not be held responsible for our inaction concerning every evil in the world? We had the money to spend on a luxury item called Guild Wars, money that could have been (and maybe even ought to have been) spent on abuse shelters, orphanges, and food banks. Is our inaction on this matter make us the cause for battered women and children? NO. The abuser is the cause. No blame goes anywhere else. The ONLY appropriate action is to seek out the abusers and deal with them. Providing shelters is important, but it will not solve the problem. The abuser will only go find another person to beat on. This is why any argument regarding a companies influence on global society and safety has no ramifications, UNLESS they are the ones whose actions are what detrimentally affects society or safety. In your arguments, they are not. Terrorists and sweatshop owners and the like are. You said it yourself, ANet's inaction is what you want to hold accountable. Yet even their inaction on the matter of botting is several degrees away from the real problems, so it would be ludicrous to attempt to give them any responsibility.

Fitz Rinley · Aug 01, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Those who do not care about being moral at all times, will cease to care about being moral at anytime.

So much presumption here it's unbelievable. I take it you have some figures or perhaps a nice article for us that will confirm this? yeah I didn't think so. More babbling about nothing.

Correctly answered by:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohnzh

Hmm...I would have to say I disagree with Mailce, here. Who I am and my ethical values do not shut off when I sit down at a computer. One definition of character is who you are when no one is looking. That can be expanded to who you are when nobody knows it's you. If you feel like it is okay to do immoral things in a game, regardless of how trivial and meaningless it is, it still demonstrates a weakness in character. It is simlar to stealing a grape in the grocery store. It may seem harmless, and may even be harmless, but wrong is wrong regardless of the consequences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

How people act and what they do in their life outside of GW is none of your business.

What people do in and outside the game is always my business. It is also my business to determine when I do and do not find an ethical or social violation. Not only is it my business it is my duty as a citizen and a human. It is even more my business when it affects those things to which I have given allegiance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

By your post I take it you think botting is immoral? buying gold is immoral?

Yes, on both accounts. They are violations of the EULA, take advantage and privilege over and against fellow players where none should exist, and alter the economy/game experience through generating punitive ill-conceived measures of Prohibition, Farm Codes, etc. It is no different than the banker using the till to pad their funds in Monopoly. It is an undue and unfair advantage against other players. If someone has a decent skin max stat weapon are they going to sell it to the honest player who can offer 5k or are they going to sell it to the cheating player who can offer 100k? The service of Bots provided to dishonest playersly steals opportunity from my fellow players and destroys the economic integritty in which I also play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I do not hold ANet responsible for the actions of the criminals but for the support of those actions through inaction. I presume, and fully believe, that if money used to blow up children were traced back to a video game like this that the management would be devastated. Nor, if you read my post did I propose that this is a regular occurence, but that it is a quite real possibility. If in the face of potential heinous crimes or egregious misdeed we neglect to act to prevent that potential - whether from abuse of a video game, abuse of loopholes to steal peoples retirements, etc., then we in fact are responsible to that degree in which we did not act.

You believe the botters fund terrorism or war? LOL! they do it to fund THEIR lives. It's a job. There has been more then one article that has covered gold farmers and the bosses behind the business. I suggest you read one or two of those articles before throwing around these utterly ridiculous accusations.

These are companies which you can see, who within their own countries are not operating illegally because those nations have not adapted to first world status with proper legal structure. Do you know ALL the companies active in this trade? Is not a point in the articles that the ones shown are a portion representing the known actions – but not the unknown actions or unknown companies? What I referenced was that they are operating illegally by the use of key loggers and hacking to steal peoples accounts (not an issue in say China where private property is still disdained by law, but a fundamental issue in any civilized First World nation). What I also referenced is that untraced money like this going to nations where the enemies of civilization exist may be supporting terrorists, and that this is an unacceptable loop hole in Western Security against the enemy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Prohibition has never worked. The temperence movement attempted prohibition here and merely resulted in creating a criminal underground which would supply booze on the black-market. The same is also true of the EULA violations. And since ANet is historically aware that prohibition never works but inspires an increase in criminal markets (having people that have passed highschool history) then they know that their efforts at restricting bots through prohibiting player access to decent drops and money is exactly what is inspiring the EULA violations.

Increasing gold drops solves nothing! the online gold just drops in price, nothing more. You can not stop botting without getting rid of anything of value in the game (gold drops item drops, runes, materials, rare materials etc).

You do not stop botting by getting rid of things of value. Read what I have written: You stop botting by increasing the drop of all things of value in the game such that players are not so starved for them they go and buy virtual currency with real currency in order to obtain by purchase what you are denying them in drops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

They should not be segregating players into elite and non-elite groups where one is provided wealth and privilege and the other is not. Their current drop system does this. They should not be promoting EULA violations with prohibitions. Their current drop system does this. The question is begged, to what end and for what benefit do they punish the bulk of their players in this manner? No answer to it is justifiable.

…
everyone can gain access to the elite areas,

So, there are no conditions preventing anyone from accessing elite areas at anytime – that is there are no elite areas which denigrate all persons who do not have access to them as non-elite.

Quote:

everyone can access the top farming spots,

Everyone has access to the Skyway? The average player walking to Sardelac for the first time has access to Talus Chute? After I arrive in Kamadan I can just map to Crystal Overlook?

Quote:

everyone can gain access to hard mode,

No, not everyone can. I have access to it, but I know others who cannot and without being aided never will have access to it. I know of some who play this game from a wheel chair, one who is deaf, etc. Unless people like me can convince them to allow us to help them (something ingrained in most not to allow but to be self-sufficient) they will not be able to PUG without being treated crudely by impatient jerks and rude children. But with consideration they can be the best players, morally, adventuring, and in combat.

Quote:

If people can't be bothered to complete a campaign then they have no right to hard more, this goes for all the elite areas as well.

Because of botting top end drops were ripped away from the access of normal players and made them co-dependent upon so-called elite players to deign to bring them down something for exorbitant prices. Prices which can be all the higher because the inspiration to bot is increased through prohibiting drops to normal players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

People are poor by choice, if they can't be bothered to do that little extra then they can't whine. Nothing you be handed to anyone on a plate.

I pretty much play all day every day. I have only started farming because I have forced to do that tedious monotonous droll function in order to progress my characters and heroes into something decent worth playing. I have to do this because the drops Do Not Happen in any kind of sufficient regularity for me to use them to out fit my heroes and characters as needed. I am still poor. I do not have sufficient to do what I need, nor anything I want. Almost all of my weapons and most of my armor is because it is affordable and accessible; this in-spite of having beaten two campaigns. There is a difference between just giving a player everything they want, like ANet does for PvP, and seeking to get rid of problems ANet helps maintain through Prohibition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

And FYI the loot scaling has worked a treat, 1000k use to cost $40, it is now around the $70-80 mark. I'm thinking that is a big deterrent to the casual gold buyer. Those that have the available means will always purchase gold, no matter the price.

Little fact about economics: Prices rise when demand is higher than supply. If prices have doubled then ANet has doubled the willingness of players to purchase virtual currency with real currency. This means I am exactly right and that only increasing drops will devalue the violation based market.

Your other points are wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohnzh

HOWEVER, Fitz's response concerning integrity and morals had absolutely nothing to do with the statement he was responding to. The statement had to do with thought, not character. And it had to do with thinking about his arguments, not playing the game. His response to that was nothing but confusing.

Agreed, Malice Black shows no intuitive perception in his response, whether by choice or lack of practice in the skill. However, he is responding to a logical pattern which shows the process of thought in character/-character. His choosing to focus on content rather than process is not a problem which originates with the transmitter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohnzh

Fitz, you still miss my point concerning passing out blame to ANet. If we hold them responsible for their inaction, should we not be held responsible for our inaction concerning every evil in the world?

By degree, yes. I am not so short sighted as to hold morale support (hence just recreation) unnecessary to the holistic well being of persons. Fail to maintain that and you will increase the incentive to wrong doing. Companies like ANet, entertainment industries, are a function of that morale support service. However, companies like ANet also carry a governing capacity which individuals do not carry. In said capacity as governors of their product they have an obligation to higher action and higher response than individuals, and especially individuals who lack resources to act. One can only be responsible to act if one is able to respond. The pricing placed in evidence by Malice Black shows that Prohibition of drops is improving the industry and that demand is exceeding supply. The only moral response which ANet can therefore take is to increase drops so that demand decreases. If gold was $3.00 per 100k then demand would have dropped and it would be obvious that players were getting what they wanted such that it would cease to be worth the time and energy of botters to work in GW. They will either move to other games, or, if those games should also become enlightened and intelligent in economic operations, they will cease altogether and find or create a productive industry that does not deal with violating our domestic economic, rules, and culture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohnzh

You said it yourself, ANet's inaction is what you want to hold accountable. Yet even their inaction on the matter of botting is several degrees away from the real problems, so it would be ludicrous to attempt to give them any responsibility.

ANet is either going to improve the economy by ending prohibition which they know causes the botting to increase and the EULA violations, or they may simply admit through inaction or directly to being party to it. Those are the only two options in this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

If the trading system were immoral, I'd assign a relation to it.

Excellent attempt at a Straw Man with a touch of Red Herring Souce for flavor.

Snow Bunny · Aug 01, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Ugh. I read all that, and realized it's all a bunch of whining and bad assumptions. It's impolite that I say that, but I'm being honest here.
Close this thread please...it's just 1 guy fruitlessly arguing with a mod and several others.

MithranArkanere · Aug 02, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Selling for real money ingame gold is against the rules.

It's like stealing. People can get money by stealing, but it's against the rules. Stealing it's not a job. It's a crime.
So... try to avoid defending ebay gold selling. And never again say it's a 'job' because it is not. It's against the rules.

And try to remember the rules. They exist to be followed.

Fitz Rinley · Aug 02, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Ugh. I read all that, and realized it's all a bunch of whining and bad assumptions. It's impolite that I say that, but I'm being honest here.
Close this thread please...it's just 1 guy fruitlessly arguing with a mod and several others.

You dismiss hundreds to thousands of years in Western Economic and Academic development as bad assumptions. That is most amusing. Of course we are quite aware that the rules and functions I have used are so totally backward that Western Civilization has barely left the stone age. Why we are still trading cowery shells for currency to ensure that the soul of the manufacturer of an item left in it from their labor will not kill us for taking possession of it. Yes, we have not learned any economic lessons in the last several thousand years, and these things (like the law of supply and demand) are just bad assumptions.

The only reason I can think of you wanting the thread closed is because you are profitting by gold sales and need the derth of wealth to continue so that you can continue to earn a profit in EULA violation. The only people who can be against opening drops are those who stand to profit personally from having them opened or the ignorant. Since I do not believe you ignorant I can only understand you are profitting by maintaining EULA violations.

The correct action to undercut e-bay gold selling is open drops. Anyone opposed to this correct action can only have a vested interest in profitting by keeping the current system.

Bithor the Dog · Aug 02, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Thats not the point mithran.... to some it is a job, and its survival. That isnt condoning it its a stated fact. The mere action of playing a game and earning gold isnt against any rules. Taking that gold and selling it ...is...thats not essentially stealing it, its misdirecting it or laundering it if you like.

its not criminal per se its against rulings by ANET. Its up to them to enforce that not policital, moral, police, judges and juries etc. in the end yes it could be if ANET could bring a suit, but at first hand it isnt.

at the end of the day it is a game. not socio-political economics, or anything else. Calling anet anything other than game developers is a tad silly.
We could site any other game developer who end up getting thier games copied in a house in Hong Kong in the same fashion. its going to happen.
It isnt right, it isnt correct. Its against the rules. But what in darwins name has it got to do with playing this game.

I have never farmed...ever ....for gold. ive always got through my game and got what i wanted through saving and merchanting and trading. Unfortunately according to the OP in other threads, that is wrong too.
So im giving this a typical British "Two Finger Salute"... Go read the posts of the OP on Incgamers and you will see there he states that he is almost a professional Guild Wars player playing roughly 8 hours a day. And that he has been moaning about farming since early - mid 2006. Lots of wants and needs in most of the statements but rarely anything constructive, why because it takes 30 minutes to read the posts because they are too long winded waffle packed stodge.
Be concise, be short and to the point and get it over with.
don't go bringing real life morals and arguments into the game. Its like politics and religion. Actors and Kids/ animals...they never really work well together.
We knw its going on, its not our problem to sort out and there isnt a lot WE can actually do about it. We can suggest and rant and rave all we like. But if ANET dont do anything its then up to you....dont like it ...go play something else...prepared to live with it...go play GW and stop moaning...is my opinion.

If there was something we could do like petition ANET effectively then this whole debate may be worth something, as it is its just getting up peoples noses and now its got the moderators irked as well...its just not worth all the hassles of getting worked up over...this life is short enough as it is and i intend to enjoy it while i can, after all ive not got many years left on this dump hole of a planet so im going out smiling....Fitz...try it sometime...it may make you less stressed and narcissistic

Fitz Rinley · Aug 02, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bithor the Dog

If there was something we could do like petition ANET effectively then this whole debate may be worth something, ...

If you have ever dealt with ANet then you will know that they profess an utter incapacity to take observation from contacting them. The only way they claim to make any developmental decisions is from what appears in fan forums.

The possibility that this is true exists as they have made some changes in access to so-called elite areas in Cantha and Tyria, slightly improved storage capacity, modified the armor system so that one can get the appearance one desires with the stats which enhance one's preferrence for play, and made attempts (errant ones) at dealing with bots and their customers.

The fact remains anyone who supports prohibition and restriction of drops supports the botting industry. That is simple economics in every kind of world, virtual or real. Maintenance of that support is an immoral act.

Frankly, there are a couple of you who merely strike me as lacking the education to comprehend the nature of economic action or moral value. The response is to call anyone who can make educated observation a "whiner." Having the capacity to see what is right, what is possible, and protest what is wrong is a moral obligation - not whining.

And for someone who supposedly has me on the ignore list, you are doing an incredible amount of research to attempt to discredit me. And because I know the truth, you cannot defeat me even if you manage to sway others to shut me down or out. I will remain correct. This is also true of the other forum where I was banned for detailing faults and exposing the attempts to Manage the public after the incredible disappointments, misunderstandings, misinformation, and failure in production executed with the release of Factions. The correct thing to do was to correct the mistakes. Some of those mistakes have been corrected - access to so-called elite areas through scrolls. Elimination of absolute control of player access based upon Faction Farming Zerg coupled with the ability to buy faction with in game or out of game currency. (Consider how much gold could be sold on the Internet if bots farmed faction to maintain absolute control of HzH and Cav such that they charged all players for admission to elite areas. This was possible under the previous system - and that was bad game design.) But you consider protesting bad policy and bad game design merely whining.

Well, I am not a Brit, I am an American. And I am man enough to surpass your bird. After all, we know a person must stand for something or they will fall for anything. And as you have noted I have not backed down on any principle and I will not.

Collintag · Aug 02, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

o.O

wow...a lot of words for something so simple.

Bots are annoying in clogging up towns and outposts. They break the EULA so should be banned without question. It's that simple.

Now for Anet to pick up the pace on bannings...

Bithor the Dog · Aug 02, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Collintag

o.O

wow...a lot of words for something so simple.

Bots are annoying in clogging up towns and outposts. They break the EULA so should be banned without question. It's that simple.

Now for Anet to pick up the pace on bannings...

Yup first point is a great one..

Umm...How do bots clog up outposts? not being critical but i dont see how they do that. If its full in a particular place you get shunted to another district right? and if its server lag, ive never had a problem myself with lag due to bots. so i cannot comment for or against that. I get more lag when there is a festival on if im honest.

EULA violation yup agree...ANET are on it, give them thier dues they are essentially a small company. So do they employ someone to actively police the servers full time to eradicate the bots or is it someone elses "side" job in amongst all the other things they have to do? if its the latter then you can see why they are a tad slow sometimes. if its the former then they perhaps arent as effective as they would like us to think. I dont know

There is a lot of criticism towards anet for not taking out the bots and doing this and that. But we want new stuff, game changes, balancing, this that and uncle tom cobbley and all, so if this guy in anet has ten other jobs and we demand he eradicates bots, then we have to be patient do we not? or do we demand bots out and he slacks off on some other job we all want and demand and we get that ingame feature slower because he can only do one thing at a time....
I say that to customers i work with...im going as fast as i can with one pair of hands. I CAN go slower if youd like? They soon see the reasoning.

For most gamers who demand this sort of feedback from developers they would essentially have to pay subscriptions. We dont and we demand shout and stamp our feet til we get it. do other games have this much contact with developers?
None that ive ever played did

MithranArkanere · Aug 02, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

So if UI decide to steal, or being a hitman or something like that. Woul I have the excuse of 'survival'?
No.

There are no excuse for breaking the rules. If there is a problem about the rules, they shold be changed, but until they are changed, they must be followed.

There are a lot many of ways to earn cash other than setting a bunch of bots, bothering other players and breaking rules.

Bithor the Dog · Aug 02, 2007, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

So if UI decide to steal, or being a hitman or something like that. Woul I have the excuse of 'survival'?
No.

Depends on the circmstances . For you to challenge that you need to be able to do an actual comparison.ie are you living in absolute poverty barely feeding your children? Im sure that most people would see a difference in reality if the boot was on the other foot. NO it isnt right and its against the rules i totally agree with you there. But its what is sometimes called mitigating circumstances as to the reason why they do it.
If i was faced with either a. feeding my kids and family or b. taking a moral view and say no...stuff it let em starve....i think i know which one i would take and that i believe is the position of many of these people

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

There are no excuse for breaking the rules. If there is a problem about the rules, they shold be changed, but until they are changed, they must be followed.

There are a lot many of ways to earn cash other than setting a bunch of bots, bothering other players and breaking rules.

So if a person is getting beat up badly and fights back and kills the guy is that no excuse? if a woman suffers torment at the hands of her husband for years and she kills him, is that no excuse. if the kids are dying on the streets and they steal to survive is that no excuse? ever heard of "crime of passion"?
its far fetched but somewhat the same anology.. there are always circumstances as to why something happens like this and despite what we think about them, they are ten a penny. For whatever reason social, economic or whatever these people are suffering, they will always try to do better to survive. thats a reason not an excuse to them.

once we see that in the debate it has to change. The botters are 9 times out of 10 being controlled themselves! its not one guy in a small hut somewhere. its organised..they work for like $100 US a week and maybe to them thats a kings ransom, i dont know im not there! nor are any of us. we are privilaged in how we are.
So just how do we combat it? reverse it by stamping on players who buy this?
Banning Bot accounts?
Loot scaling?
has any of it worked or has it just dented the tip of the iceberg? are we fighting a losing battle or holding our own...
i cant see how it really really matters in so much as. i and many of my friends and guildies are not overly upset over this. its a factor of the game we play and i fear that its not going to go away quickly if at all.
so we live with it, thats what i and a vast majority of happy players do. ive never wanted for anything in game...ive earnt it bought it, saved for it...done different things to keep my interests up.